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| # 03:02:09 | memleak | hi everyone |
| # 03:02:32 | memleak | channel is a bit quiet just thought i'd be polite and welcome everyone, newcomers, veterans, devs, etc |
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| # 05:55:52 | memleak | good night everyone!!!!!!!!!! |
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| # 12:19:07 | mingwandroid | hey guys. |
| # 12:19:28 | mingwandroid | I got a problem using ctng to make 'native' compilers .. |
| # 12:20:01 | mingwandroid | so it 'installs' binutils into buildtools - really replaces the old wrapper scripts with symlinks .. |
| # 12:20:55 | mingwandroid | .. but then when it's configuring for building libc start files, well, e.g. the built ld gets used but it's no good as e.g. crt1.o isn't built yet. |
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| # 16:54:32 | memleak | hello mingwandroid! i believe native and canadian builds are unstable (new features, haven't been worked on much) i'd stick around and wait for y_morin he'll be able to help. |
| # 16:55:49 | mingwandroid | memleak: ok thanks, I cant see why its determining that I'm not native ATM. |
| # 16:55:56 | memleak | i don't believe many people use ct-ng for native builds (maybe they all do it by hand like me?) so you'll have to wait for someone with more experience with ct-ng to assist. sorry about that. |
| # 16:56:46 | memleak | speaking of which i'm compiling the gcc 4.7 branch from git to use as my system wide compiler. |
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| # 17:04:03 | memleak | there he is! mingwandroid shoot! |
| # 17:04:26 | y_morin | hides... |
| # 17:39:06 | mingwandroid | heh. |
| # 17:39:42 | mingwandroid | y_morin: so I'm helping out on some Windows hosted/built, Linux targeting cross compilers for someone. |
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| # 17:44:52 | mingwandroid | and I want to do a comparision with Linux hosted/built, Linux targetting native compilers .. |
| # 17:45:04 | mingwandroid | but ctng seems to always think it's CT_CROSS?! |
| # 17:45:22 | mingwandroid | despite my sample having CT_NATIVE=y and CT_TOOLCHAIN_TYPE="native" |
| # 18:07:43 | y_morin | mingwandroid: Building a native toolchain is not supported in ct-ng. |
| # 18:08:57 | y_morin | mingwandroid: A native toolchain is one without a sysroot. In such a toolchain, gcc (and ld) will search in /usr/include (and /lib and /usr/lib), without prefixing those locations with the sysroot path. |
| # 18:09:19 | y_morin | mingwandroid: This is a bit complex to set up, so crostool-NG does not support that (for now?) |
| # 18:10:01 | mingwandroid | y_morin: yeah, I just can't figure out where the config stuff is determining it not to be native is all, I'd be prepared to try to make the rest work if I can get over this initial hump. |
| # 18:12:00 | y_morin | mingwandroid: I don;t want to discourage you, but that's gonna bea quite a bit of work. |
| # 18:12:16 | y_morin | mingwandroid: We'd first need to differentiate the build-time sysroot from the runtime sysroot |
| # 18:12:47 | y_morin | mingwandroid: Then, we need to diferentiate between PREFIX_DIR and DEST_DIR |
| # 18:12:55 | y_morin | And this is quite a bit of work. |
| # 18:14:34 | mingwandroid | y_morin: ok, I'll mull this over some more then. I got a fair few things on my plate ATM. |
| # 18:16:47 | mingwandroid | y_morin: thanks for the help though. |
| # 18:17:45 | y_morin | mingwandroid: Cheers! I know what it is to be over-booked! ;-) |
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| # 20:06:04 | memleak | hey y_morin im kind of a hardcore basher, maybe i can help you with the native toolchain build? |
| # 20:09:43 | y_morin | memleak: Hello! Thanks for propsing your help! |
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| # 20:10:22 | y_morin | memleak: the problem is not much about bash itself (I to am quite a jard-core basher), but rather with how to configure gcc/binutils/glibc/... to suport native compilation. |
| # 20:15:44 | memleak | ct-ng native assumes you have an already working compiler, right? |
| # 20:17:07 | memleak | rather want to update or install over your existing toolchain? or is it sort of like cross compilation where it puts it in an x-tools directory as opposed to putting it in /usr |
| # 20:17:26 | y_morin | memleak: It currently assumes nothing, this there is no code to support native! :-] |
| # 20:17:51 | y_morin | memleak: The difference between a cross and a native is: |
| # 20:18:16 | y_morin | memleak: cross will look in sysroot (and is relocatable), so we can install the sysroot wherever we want. |
| # 20:18:37 | y_morin | memleak: native does not use a sysroot, and will always look in /usr/inluce and /lib and /usr/lib |
| # 20:18:51 | memleak | so native needs root permissions |
| # 20:18:53 | y_morin | memleak: so because native does not have a sysroot, we have to fake one at build-time |
| # 20:19:10 | memleak | ohh i see i see |
| # 20:19:13 | y_morin | memleak: No, we do want to avoid root-access! We do not want to override the system's includes and libs! |
| # 20:19:23 | y_morin | Yep. |
| # 20:19:46 | memleak | do we want to override the systems compiler? |
| # 20:19:49 | y_morin | memleak: Also, since cros is completely relocatable, it does not matter where we install it. |
| # 20:19:59 | y_morin | memleak: I meant: overwrite. |
| # 20:20:36 | memleak | does the system that wants to build native supposed to have a compiler already there or do we supply pre-built binaries? |
| # 20:21:14 | y_morin | memleak: If we wanted a cros that runs off /opt/foo/bar (but that requires root access), we can still build it and install it in ${HOME}/buz and have root just copy everything after the fact to /opt/foo/bar |
| # 20:21:39 | y_morin | memleak: crosstool-NG already has support for building the required cros-compiler if needed. |
| # 20:21:49 | y_morin | memleak: that's used for canadian-cros, for now. |
| # 20:23:18 | y_morin | memleak: Oh, BTW, we must not confuse "native" and "cross-native". |
| # 20:23:51 | memleak | ohh |
| # 20:24:08 | y_morin | memleak: "native" is about a toolchain that targets the current system, and expects to run on that sane system. This almost irrealist. |
| # 20:24:41 | y_morin | memleak: OTOH, a "cros-native" is a cros-compiled native toolchain, that expects to run on the target. |
| # 20:24:49 | y_morin | memleak: Which one were you referring too? |
| # 20:25:25 | memleak | native-native |
| # 20:26:47 | y_morin | memleak: Plain "native" is not something I am interested to have syupport for in crostool-NG, because it does nto really makes sense: if your system is glibc-based, but you build a uClibc-based toolchain, then this is not a native toolchain, since it is a different ABI. |
| # 20:27:02 | memleak | ah ok |
| # 20:27:21 | y_morin | memleak: plain "native" is really confusing. What you really want in fact, is a cross. |
| # 20:27:43 | memleak | yeah i'd imagine heh thats why i asked about it |
| # 20:28:36 | y_morin | memleak: Even if your target the same _physical_ machine, you still want a cross. IF you want to also target the running system, then native will not help you. Most of the time, you may get along, but quite a few times it'll break hard. |
| # 20:30:45 | y_morin | memleak: For example, your system is running (eg.) glibc-2.16. If you build a toolchain based on glibc-2.18, the programs built with this toolchain will not work on your running system sicne your glibc is older than the toolchain's glibc. |
| # 20:30:45 | y_morin | memleak: You may get along by replacing your running glibc with the one from the toolchain, but your isk breaking your current system. |
| # 20:31:34 | y_morin | (What... Did I even think about doing this at all? Bwah, I'm going for penance...) |
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| # 21:08:30 | memleak | sorry about that y_morin i got distracted |
| # 21:08:35 | memleak | i agree with you on all points though |
| # 21:09:45 | y_morin | memleak: No problem! Getting distracted by real life is good! :-) |
| # 21:23:26 | memleak | i just had a few energy drinks a cup of coffee i feel really hyper finally |
| # 21:23:28 | memleak | like RAWWWWWWWWWWWW |
| # 21:49:43 | bhundven | y_morin: while working at WG, when I was working on static toolchain, we also thought about implementing native toolchain support. |
| # 21:50:16 | bhundven | it's not worth it. You can make a toolchain for your native architecture that is relocatable and static. |
| # 21:50:37 | bhundven | but it's not something i'd build debian packages with |
| # 21:52:50 | bhundven | y_morin: but doesn't buildroot make a native toolchain for the target "board"? |
| # 21:53:58 | y_morin | bhundven: No, we dropped it some time ago. |
| # 21:54:22 | y_morin | bhundven: Buildroot has gone to be only a cross-compilation tool (which I agree with). |
| # 21:54:41 | bhundven | bsp |
| # 21:54:44 | y_morin | bhundven: Toolchain on the target is not really suited to Buildroot, since we mostly target "small" systems |
| # 21:54:58 | y_morin | bhundven: Somewhere between BSP and SDK, yes. |
| # 21:55:44 | y_morin | bhundven: EVen if the target is /technically/ capable of running a compiler, that's not something we see as fit for Buildroot. |
| # 21:55:48 | bhundven | well, lots of microprocessor/microcontroller manufacturers use buildroot or yocto in their bsp/sdk's |
| # 21:56:39 | y_morin | bhundven: Yet, Yocto is more like a "ditribution generator", than a "root filesystem generator". |
| # 21:56:42 | bhundven | wish they'd contribute back |
| # 21:57:08 | y_morin | bhundven: Buildroot tries to follow what its name says: build a root file system. |
| # 21:57:20 | y_morin | bhundven: Some of them do contribute quite a bit! :-) |
| # 21:57:25 | bhundven | yup. I can agree with that |
| # 21:57:43 | bhundven | oh yea, freescale and blackfin |
| # 21:58:25 | y_morin | bhundven: That's a mean for Buildroot to differntiate itself from the others. Besides, we do not have the manpower or the ressources of the LiFo (Yocto is sponsored by the LiFo, and they do have quite some money!). |
| # 21:58:41 | bhundven | hehe, yea that's true. |
| # 21:58:47 | smartin_ | thinks about copy-pasting what y_morin says in the buildroot doc... |
| # 21:58:56 | bhundven | :D |
| # 21:59:03 | y_morin | smartin: Feel free to do so! ;-) |
| # 21:59:13 | bhundven | points at the ibot-logs in the /topic |
| # 21:59:23 | y_morin | smartin: However, we already have something along those lines in the manual. |
| # 21:59:28 | y_morin | bhundven: :-) |
| # 21:59:46 | bhundven | hehe, that's what I call documentation |
| # 21:59:52 | y_morin | smartin: http://nightly.buildroot.org/#faq-no-compiler-on-target |
| # 22:00:01 | y_morin | snBut I gues you know that part, don;t you? |
| # 22:01:18 | smartin_ | y_morin: yeah, i wrote it a long time ago :D |
| # 22:01:21 | bhundven | it's crazy how much work you guys have put into that project, as just the few of you. |
| # 22:01:58 | bhundven | one of the higher volume ml in my inbox |
| # 22:02:41 | y_morin | bhundven: Then you're surely not subscribed to LKML! :-p |
| # 22:03:16 | bhundven | haha |
| # 22:03:21 | bhundven | I was at one point |
| # 22:04:12 | bhundven | yea, I was so happy to unsubscribe |
| # 22:04:28 | y_morin | :-) |
| # 22:05:00 | bhundven | I'm subscribed to the homebrew pcb mailing list |
| # 22:05:21 | bhundven | but, it's on another email account that I don't really watch much |
| # 22:06:58 | memleak | quits : Ping timeout: 246 seconds |
| # 22:06:59 | bhundven | https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Homebrew_PCBs/info |
| # 22:09:53 | y_morin | is contemplating getting a 3D printer... But really has no idea what printer to get... |
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