# Format for this file: # Epoch Channel Nickname Action Message # # All separated with a single space, empty values are replaced with a dash '-' # except messages which are kept empty. # Lines starting with '#' are comments; comments are not allowed except as the only content of the line # 1465171201 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Looks like I'm developing something very similar to it 1465171239 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: yup ;) 1465171372 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: you can take a look at the buildfiles - they are _very_ straightforward, for example: https://github.com/mini-distribution/cross-core/blob/master/wget/Buildfile 1465171435 - lundmar quit Quit: WeeChat 1.4 1465171457 #crosstool-ng lundmar join 1465171496 #crosstool-ng lundmar say it is non-nonsense meta data thanks to a sysrooted ct-ng which is the compiler backend :) 1465171572 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say sysrooted? Do you mean that tools are patched to modify file paths? 1465171677 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Ohh, it's in Ruby too =) 1465171742 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: no, the great thing about buildgear is that it uses the ct-ng toolchains sysroot as a staging area so that it does not need to use a lot of compile flags to specific where sysroot is when compiling components. its implicit. 1465171757 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: what?? ruby, NO! 1465171807 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Ohh, Buildfile is recognized by GitHub as Ruby source 1465171862 #crosstool-ng lundmar say pffft 1465172029 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: anyway, I actually authored buildgear because I've found tools like OE, buildroot, etc. have too complex/noisy meta data which makes it troublesome. I wanted something simpler but still powerful. 1465172172 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: I'm looking for contributors so maybe give it a try ;) 1465172485 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say lundmar, The idea of my tool is also simplicity and also Unix-way. However my main goal is building desktop operating systems. There is one problem with Linux - Red Hat and Lennart Poettering. I don't want to say that tools which they build (systemd, btrfs-based package distribution) are bad. However they are designed to solve Red Hat's problems and don't follow unix-way. The alternative should exist. So I want to build min 1465172485 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say imalistic are simple solution to remove dependency-hell. It will also support Btrfs volumes, but it will not depend on it. So I need tool to build basic Linux system with ease 1465172568 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say lundmar, I'm interested in your project, so maybe I can help. My email is ghostbsdun@yandex.ru, so you can contact me even if I'm not here. 1465172639 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: well, I share you sentiment. systemd is not bad but it is turning in to a full fledged system layer which is problematic if it does not support your needs. 1465172668 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Yes, that's what I think 1465172716 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say yeah i dont have a problem with doing things in a non-unix way if it is an improvement 1465172728 #crosstool-ng lundmar say one can also argue systemd is exactly what Linux needs to minimize fragmentation so its kind of a lesser evil situation. 1465172768 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say how does systemd minimize fragmentation? 1465172917 #crosstool-ng lundmar say JakeSays: it is likely that most distributions will adopt systemd eventually and in doing so it means that theu will use systemds solutions of eg. network manager, volume manager, standard init scripts etc.. 1465172930 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say I'm a web developer. I use Docker in production, so I don't care about what init system is used in the system. However someone (why maybe develops complex daemons) can find that systemd helps in creating the product which will work in multiple different Linux distributions. 1465172979 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say *who maybe develops 1465173028 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say lundmar: thats not fragmentation - its just standardization 1465173030 #crosstool-ng lundmar say also, fact is that systemd brings alotta new features that most distros want, but unfortunately they have to take it all or nothing. 1465173122 #crosstool-ng lundmar say JakeSays: I mean fragmentation on a component level. If say distros stop using network-manger or connman, they will eventually die off and thus less fragmentation. 1465173134 #crosstool-ng lundmar say less choices for network managers. 1465173150 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say fewer choices is *definitely* not the linux way 1465173212 #crosstool-ng lundmar say true, but it is ironically also the biggest problem for the expansion of of GNU/Linux systems. 1465173214 #crosstool-ng lundmar say -of 1465173254 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say lundmar, you can look at my package format if you are interested https://github.com/lainix/linux-from-scratch.libertude/tree/master/tools/binutils-2.26-pass1 1465173297 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say I also want to target non-Linux kernels too. For example, my packages are built successfully in FreeBSD 1465173503 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: regarding buildgear and building for desktop. While buildgear is designed as a crosstool build tool it can easily be used for non-cross. It would simply result in a colletion of "native" buildfiles. 1465173561 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: I think it is problematic that your build actions are spread across so many files. It makes it difficult to get a quick overview of how things are built. 1465173637 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: Also, I don't like json. One might think json is human readable but it really isn't that read friendly and it is even harder to create. Just my opinion. 1465173663 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Yes, my package format is just prototype. I also have idea to make packages fully declarative 1465173708 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say I found that JSON is the most simple and fleible way to start 1465173713 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say *flexible 1465173717 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: I fully understand hat you are trying. I've been there myself. After many iterations I came to the format of the buildfile. You can't make it simpler than that ;) 1465173725 #crosstool-ng lundmar say what* 1465173792 #crosstool-ng lundmar say also, all software that we build is focused around bash environments so it makes a lot of sense sticking to bash (buildfile is bash interpreted). 1465173899 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say It's not a problem to install bash on any system. However I don't need bash features so I use unix shell 1465173985 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: ehh, what do you mean by unix shell? You mean the original Unix? 1465173993 #crosstool-ng lundmar say bash is a *nix shell if you like 1465174010 #crosstool-ng lundmar say used by 90% of all GNU/Linux systems 1465174017 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say dash, busybox's ash 1465174025 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say lundmar, also how does your tool support binary packages? 1465174068 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: yes, it builds binary packages but they are mainly for temporary used during build of the fs. 1465174105 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: in the buildfile, everything that is put in $PKG ends up in a package. 1465174124 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say I've strongly separated build and installation because users don't want to wait for compilation 1465174158 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: you don't want to build using dash/ash etc.. A lot of software fails to build under those shells. 1465174296 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say My application runs my scripts in dash/ash, however make is running in subshell so it can use bash, as I understand 1465174322 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: buildgear builds all components once and then they are cached so it does not rebuild anything unless required. 1465174350 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say I want to strongly determine build and runtime dependencies of every package with continuous building 1465174365 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say So if build requires bash, it will have bash as build dependency 1465174405 #crosstool-ng lundmar say sure, a build tool without dependency support is no good. 1465174406 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say If it doesn't, build will fail on base system during continuous building 1465174422 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Yes, I don't support dependencies now =) 1465174467 #crosstool-ng lundmar say well - you better go study acyclic directed graphs then ha ha 1465174480 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say I have trouble with how to determine versions 1465174500 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Should every version be separate package, or every major version, etc. 1465174544 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Fortunately I have some background in algorithms =) 1465174594 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say if only it didn't take >1h to compile a toolchain, I'd probably have it solved already. Arg. 1465174625 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: what is all that sudo nonsense you have in your readme? you should never build/run anything as root 1465174644 #crosstool-ng lundmar say fenugrec: hehe, I have the same problem - laptop is so slow ;) 1465174671 #crosstool-ng lundmar say fenugrec: maybe skip the c++ step for sh debug ;) 1465174673 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Yes, readme is just a prototype too. It doesn't cover build process anyway 1465174710 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: you have a long way ahead of you he he 1465174726 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say I've just started two weeks ago =) 1465174751 #crosstool-ng lundmar say good luck ;) 1465174764 #crosstool-ng lundmar say fenugrec: I see sh4 fails the same way. 1465174860 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say Maybe I can even replace all my stuff except virtual file systems with your. Your looks suitable 1465174987 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say lundmar, which of the repositories is the most suitable for desktop? 1465175323 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: actually, there are two ways to go about you mission using buildgear. One is to create a set of "native" buildfiles from scratch. The other would be to simply use the "cross" buildfiles by specifying the HOST sys to be the same as the BUILD sys. 1465175508 #crosstool-ng lundmar say fenugrec: if you find anything interesting and don't resolve it please put your finding on your issue on github 1465175564 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say CLFS is an insane amount of work. Tried once ~ 2007 1465175654 #crosstool-ng lundmar say hehe I agree 1465176951 - fenugrec quit Read error: Connection timed out 1465177033 #crosstool-ng fenugrec join 1465180024 - lundmar quit Quit: WeeChat 1.4 1465180332 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say damn it, another kernel crash while compiling 1465180877 - blueness quit Quit: blueness 1465182709 - ghostbsdun quit Remote host closed the connection 1465182803 #crosstool-ng blueness join 1465185452 - fenugrec quit Ping timeout: 244 seconds 1465186330 - blueness quit Quit: blueness 1465187775 #crosstool-ng blueness join 1465192350 #crosstool-ng diorcety join 1465193816 - diorcety quit Read error: Connection reset by peer 1465200369 #crosstool-ng ragedragon join 1465202167 #crosstool-ng lundmar join 1465205938 #crosstool-ng florolf join 1465205939 #crosstool-ng florolf say hi 1465206059 #crosstool-ng florolf say i'm trying to build a ppc32 (BE) toolchain for building uboot, which needs a libgcc built with -mrelocatable (or possibly, -mrelocatable-lib). is there a correct way to do this with crosstool-ng? (i've resorted to manually patching the final-stage gcc makefiles for the moment) 1465206541 - blueness quit Quit: blueness 1465206960 #crosstool-ng blueness join 1465207117 - blueness quit Client Quit 1465207238 #crosstool-ng blueness join 1465207263 - luc4 quit Ping timeout: 240 seconds 1465209297 #crosstool-ng luc4 join 1465209310 - luc4 quit Client Quit 1465211568 - alan_o quit Ping timeout: 272 seconds 1465212327 #crosstool-ng alan_o join 1465212902 #crosstool-ng fenugrec join 1465213232 - Net147 quit Quit: Quit 1465213411 #crosstool-ng Net147 join 1465219080 - ragedragon quit Ping timeout: 260 seconds 1465220139 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun join 1465221916 #crosstool-ng luc4 join 1465224673 #crosstool-ng luc4_ join 1465224680 - luc4 quit Ping timeout: 260 seconds 1465224680 - luc4_ nick luc4 1465228852 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: here you go: https://github.com/mini-distribution/x86board 1465228874 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: had a little trouble with ct-ng config to make it work for x86 but it is fine now. 1465229038 #crosstool-ng ghostbsdun say lundmar, hello. Thank you. Will look later 1465229066 #crosstool-ng lundmar say ghostbsdun: sure, its just for test so you can see how it works and what the meta is for x86. 1465229112 #crosstool-ng lundmar say I wish I had a faster computer, building toolchains takes so long when you have to iterate 1465229305 - luc4 quit Quit: luc4 1465230489 #crosstool-ng y_morin join 1465234914 #crosstool-ng enunes join 1465235511 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say so to do this fabled canadian build, i need three toolchains? native, build -> target-host and build -> target-target? 1465236066 #crosstool-ng lundmar say JakeSays: basically yes, exactly as described in the 3 last steps here: http://crosstool-ng.org/#canadian_build 1465236268 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say lundmar: just wanted to make sure i read that right 1465236335 #crosstool-ng lundmar say its a triple whammy 1465236438 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say lundmar: its a disk space hog. lol 1465236472 #crosstool-ng lundmar say true, not to mention all the heat generated by your poor cpu to get there ;) 1465236495 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say lol 1465236498 #crosstool-ng lundmar say building toolchains is hard work for cpus ^^ 1465236513 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say i have a large air conditioner in my office 1465236521 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say to cool my cpu and my machine's cpu 1465236591 #crosstool-ng lundmar say one of those new 10 core i7 would do nicely though for building stuff 1465236599 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say yes it would 1465236609 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say need a few more side projects for one of those tho 1465236748 #crosstool-ng lundmar say jez, it's only 140W TDP haha 1465236772 #crosstool-ng lundmar say better turn off all heating in the house before running that 1465237908 #crosstool-ng lundmar say fenugrec: updated the sh3 issue 1465238014 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say lundmar: hi - thanks, I also fiiinally managed to compile last night for sh3eb. It was too late to test though, I'll get back at it later today 1465238043 #crosstool-ng lundmar say fenugrec: you are the guy with hw so you will know for sure ;) 1465238063 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say yeah just looking at the disassembly will be enough 1465238101 #crosstool-ng lundmar say sh ISA, bzzzzzzz 1465238114 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say bzz ? 1465238116 #crosstool-ng lundmar say I wouldn't touch it ^^ 1465238136 #crosstool-ng lundmar say It makes my brain go spaz 1465238145 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say what ? nah, I've come to like the SH instruction set quite a lot compared to, say, ARM 1465238185 #crosstool-ng lundmar say I've stopped venturing into other/old ISA - arm is superior :) 1465238297 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say lundmar: I happened on this a few months ago looking for some SH info - http://0pf.org/j-core.html - some people obviously find SH still relevant 1465238339 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say If nothing else, it's so much less messy than ARM. "oh do I need interworking ? does this support thumb ? 7TDMI ? 9 ? Cortex-M0 with a limited Thumb subset ? " etc etc 1465238381 #crosstool-ng lundmar say yes, it is interesting that sh is now so old the IP is expiring and allowing for stuff like open J core. 1465238417 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say but anyway, I didn't really choose SH, it's the hardware I'm working on that dictated it P-) 1465238419 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say heh 1465238464 #crosstool-ng lundmar say fenugrec: I figure that much ;) 1465238490 #crosstool-ng lundmar say obviously if you had to choose you would choose ARM - all sane persons do ^^ 1465238494 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say it could've been worse, like some antique 68k variant, or V850, or other "oddball" stuff 1465238496 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say HAH 1465238549 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say maybe I got stockholmed into liking SH, but it's the truth, I enjoy working with that arch 1465238555 #crosstool-ng lundmar say don't diz m68k - it is excellent, I mean simple :) 1465238585 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say or Z80, or 8051 which I also won't touch gladly 1465238586 #crosstool-ng lundmar say well, at least SH is RISC type - that is good. 1465238610 #crosstool-ng lundmar say worst ISA is x86 - so much horrible legacy stuff 1465238687 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say yea. And a neat trick : these mcus often map the RAM at the top of the 32-bit space. To load absolute addresses, you can load a 16-bit immediate value that will get sign-extended to the desired RAM address which is usually > FFFF 0000 1465238728 #crosstool-ng lundmar say lots of trickery he he 1465238785 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say there's worse though. Like "mov r0, 0xF8", "r0 << 8", then you get "FFFF F800" . But that's devious 1465238836 #crosstool-ng lundmar say no, sh is too tricky for me :) 1465238843 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say (looking at your ct-ng tree... so *that's* where you're supposed to put the patches - I couldn't figure it out, so I butchered the file manually !) 1465238853 #crosstool-ng lundmar say haha 1465238895 #crosstool-ng lundmar say well, I thought that might be the case so I published the patch. 1465238946 #crosstool-ng lundmar say if you like, you can make a proper patch which also patches some of the older newlibs and send it upstream ;) 1465239084 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say I'm considering writing to the newlib dev mailing list for that 1465239101 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say but before I do, some testing needs to happen 1465239129 #crosstool-ng lundmar say good idea - have the newlib guys review it 1465239175 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say I'm still fuzzy on how everything fits together, i.e. gcc was compiled for "sh3" but it should normally hopefully also support backwards-compatible sh1, sh2, sh2e etc stuff. But the toolchain is named "sh3eb" anyway 1465239226 #crosstool-ng lundmar say you are saying it automatically changes to sh3eb? 1465239236 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say it's the same situation with "arm" I guess, the typical "arm" toolchains supports a lot of -mXYZ variants 1465239341 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say well, I mean that when configuring ct-ng, I had to choose sh3, and big-endian. In reality I want a general SH toolchain, like you'd have on ARM. But the tuple / triplet starts with "sh3eb-", and I'm not sure what implications that would have (not the naming per se, but my choosing "sh3" and big-endian) 1465239563 #crosstool-ng lundmar say fenugrec: you sh target is BE? 1465239598 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say yes 1465239601 #crosstool-ng lundmar say oh I see, it is BE 1465239662 #crosstool-ng lundmar say I'm building a sh3, BE now 1465239688 #crosstool-ng lundmar say curious to see where it changes to sh3eb because it shouldn't 1465239796 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say ct-ng does that somewhere, I think I saw it in... uh.. 1465239868 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say scripts/functions 1465239896 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say wait, no 1465239928 #crosstool-ng lundmar say it is probably okay, it *eb seems to be commonly used notation for BE sh toolchains. 1465239943 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say scripts/build/arch/sh.sh, it uses the "target_endian_eb" specifically. Interesting. 1465239971 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say oh yea, and there's a gcc option for specifying endianness anyway, so I'm not sure why it needs to be defined for the whole toolchain 1465239979 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say for libc perhaps ? 1465240034 #crosstool-ng lundmar say it's mainly for configure scripts etc. 1465240048 #crosstool-ng lundmar say to identify which configuration to use 1465240103 #crosstool-ng lundmar say so it will work fine 1465240365 #crosstool-ng aneyman__ say y_morin: 383? :) 1465240463 #crosstool-ng fenugrec say but man. "building a cross-compiler is not trivial" is quite an understatement 1465240810 #crosstool-ng lundmar say true, it's basically a combination game of many options. ct-ng helps alot getting it right ;) 1465246003 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say ct-ng makes it sane 1465246015 #crosstool-ng JakeSays say still painful, but at least sane 1465246365 #crosstool-ng lundmar say man must hold on to his sanity 1465249715 - blueness quit Quit: blueness 1465252171 - y_morin quit Quit: Nighty Night! 1465252198 - lundmar quit Quit: WeeChat 1.4 1465252222 #crosstool-ng blueness join 1465252252 - blueness quit Client Quit 1465252988 #crosstool-ng blueness join 1465255247 #crosstool-ng luc4 join